The Joomla!^® User Experience Portal

1. Do you use a framework? Is so what is it?

As few others from our team already said, Kunena is currently moving towards Twitter Bootstrap.

2. What are the top three things you look for/use in a framework?

I don't really care as long as Joomla finally gets well documented standard that will be adopted by most extension/template developers. And here I'm not talking only about the backend, but also the frontend.

3. Have you used any of the above frameworks? What was your experience?

For those I've used only Bootstrap, but I've quickly looked at some of the other options as well.

4. Which frameworks do you recommend staying away from?

I'd say current situation in Joomla. For me, templating has been one of the most frustrating things in Joomla.

Currently as there's no standard way to write HTML or CSS, everyone seems to be reinventing the wheel. This hurts both compatibility (broken layouts with different templates) and causes inconsistencies between different components (and even inside components) -- like someone said, Joomla sites often look like they have been made from a few separate applications and put together by using iframes. The amount of CSS needed to work around all the layout issues also means that even individual components get very hard to customize.

There's also another issue: lack of continuity. Once you get your site up and running smoothly, you still have to maintain it. And because of lack of standards the HTML/CSS keeps on changing. That's true for both Joomla itself and many of its components. Automatic upgrades are great, but they are no good if you need to use hours of fixing your site every time someone decides to change the markup of the default layouts.

5. If you had to choose one framework for Joomla, what would it be?

For me there's only once choice.

Current trend has been towards Bootstrap. We were already moving our layouts towards Bootstrap markup when we learned that we weren't alone with our efforts. It was nice to talk with other people and find out that we all shared the same vision. The most surprising was that nobody seemed to know of the other parties when they picked up Bootstrap.

Kunena is already heading towards Bootstrap and we are inviting everyone else to do the same.

Matias wrote:


Looks like practical -real world- usage is going towards Bootsrap, just like many devs use jQuery. Using Bootsrap is starting too look more and more like a no brainer!

1. Do you use a framework? Is so what is it?

Yes. I have used:
Twitter Bootstrap
Zurb Foundation
HTML5 Boilerplate
Half a dozen other grid-only frameworks.


2. What are the top three things you look for/use in a framework?

Flexibility
Cross-browser support
Support for RTL


3. Have you used any of the above frameworks? What was your experience?

The current leaders are Twitter Bootstrap and Zurb Foundation. I have used both, and in one case, borrowed and combined the useful bits from each one.
I liked Twitter Bootstrap more than Zurb Foundation, though the latter had a superior grid system when I last used it.


4. Which frameworks do you recommend staying away from?
HTML5 Boilerplate shouldn't even be a candidate. It's an example of good, semantic markup, but it isn't a UI framework.


5. If you had to choose one framework for Joomla, what would it be?
This is a useless question, as there are no other options for a framework... only Bootstrap, as Kyle has already done the work. The options are:
1.) Use Twitter Bootstrap
2.) Stick with Bluestork (hopefully minus the little css page peel turds on the control panel)

--------------------------

Years ago on the dev lists, you put your weight behind Mootools, even when jQuery core devs kindly offered to help us migrate to jQuery. Even then, the web development community had overwhelmingly backed jQuery, and there were way more plugins, tutorials, and resources for jQuery than there were for Mootools. Your argument was that in some advanced corner-cases, Mootools was better than jQuery. This argument was of course completely irrelevant to the vast, vast majority of Joomla's target market. It was a selfish argument for maintaining the status quo because it suited you, rather than the Joomla community.

Today, many years later, you STILL want to disregard the fact that the web development community has made a choice.

Let us not forget poor choices made in the past that continue to cost us many years later, and let us not repeat the same mistakes.

Between Bluestork and Kyle's Bootstrapped template (does it have a name yet?), Kyle's is the obvious choice.

OT: Why does a forum, let alone a UX forum, have a CAPTCHA form presented to registered users? This is my fourth attempt getting past it.

Hi all,

There are lots of new technical possibilities. Which of them will be used in the future and which fall into oblivion will be shown next year. It's an exciting time. In times of upheaval the right decision is not easy. This refers to the use of HTML5 features itself and the frameworks developed based on it.

Twitter bootstrap was created primarily to manage and maintain the Twittersite itself and its derivatives. Design and code are very closely connected.
This can cause that many pages to look the same (but not necessarily)
Joomla itself had in recent years taken a big step towards accessibility.

Bootstrap is still not quite there yet. There are problems u.a, access to the keyboard.
How it looks like with the use of Wai-Aria I do not know.

In addition, two important things we should not ignore. Behind bootstrap is standing a
Company even if it is under the Apache License.

In that moment we take it into the core, we lose our independence.

We are taking a complex package from a project we have no control over and we will be dependent on it. At the same time we do not know whether the path which Bootstrap development will follow will be consistent with our goals.

Of course it all depends on the manner of implementation.

If Joomla without bootstrap no longer works, I think this is a massive mistake. Can I use bootstrap as an option it will be for one or the other certainly a good alternative.

It is also a question of how far the implementation will go.
Adjusting the entire HTML-Outut to bootstrap is a big job,but doing it only partially (as was done with Atomic) means it will just work half-heartedly and not really achieve the goals of using a framework.

In the last months I thought a lot about new technologies, I tried a lot , and I experimented.


The result is that I think that things should be handled with care and we should work within the meaning of progressive enhancement. The user always in focus.

I've been working on the Beez template. Cleaned up the CSS , add CSS3 where it makes sense, use a little JS, made it responsive. Save 50% code and I have only two background images left.
(not finished yet)
And I implemented one or the other good ideas of other frameworks.
For me that would be the optimal way. All the different frameworks have advantages and disadvantages. I think we can learn from them to get the best for Joomla.

1. Do you use a framework? Is so what is it?

Yes. I have used the CSS frameworks:
BluePrintCSS
Twitter Bootstrap

2. What are the top three things you look for/use in a framework?

Flexibility
Functionality
Small code
Speed

3. Have you used any of the above frameworks? What was your experience?

Twitter Bootstrap version 2 with added Responsive Design support is awesome.

Regarding BluePrintCSS version that was included in the Atomic template:
it's a nice CSS framework to create a template which is compatible with the majority of browsers.
However I do not like to be limited to the 950px grid, and on my mobile phone the text seems to be too close to the sides.

4. Which frameworks do you recommend staying away from?

I would prefer using a CSS framework above any template framework.

5. If you had to choose one framework for Joomla, what would it be?

Twitter Bootstrap version 2 that supports Responsive Design.

At the moment you'll need to make use of template overrides to get Twitter Bootstrap working okay (I do not want to core hack the Twitter Bootstrap files!).
IMHO if this CSS framework would be included with Joomla, together with the right HTML output of the menu modules etc, it would make life much easier for template developers.

I would like to add that if we are forced to still keep MooTools in the core then I don't think Bootstrap is a good option. It already makes me sick that MooTools + MooTools More loads over 225K of stuff I rarely use, but if you have ever counted up the entire BootStrap library for MooTools then you are close to half a meg of download before you even touch the template, graphics, etc. Plus, the MooTools bootstrap is very lacking compared to JQuery. This is simply not an option and I honestly would have to refer clients to use a different CMS since size weighs in on their SEO value.

However, if MooTools is dropped (but have the library available for developers who need to include it, but not automatically) and JQuery is adopted into the core then everything (including bootstrap) is under 100K.

I think Bootstrap is a great option and it should be adopted so there is a "common ground" to start with for all developers much like iOS has done and has been a huge part of their success. Let's just be very conscious about the loading size/time of our default Joomla! starting point.

1. Do you use a framework? Is so what is it?

At moment we are using one based on 960.gs, but this is for grids only, but personally, I already used bootstrap and is what I like most

2. What are the top three things you look for/use in a framework?

A. On going development
B. Documentation
C. The size of user on my community

3. Have you used any of the above frameworks? What was your experience?

Only bootstrap

Twitter Bootstrap version 2 with added Responsive Design support is awesome.

4. Which frameworks do you recommend staying away from?

I don't really have anything against any framework

5. If you had to choose one framework for Joomla, what would it be?

I think bootstrap is the most claimed one... I'm not saying I would like to see bootstrap on core because others are saying... I say that because I have strong opinion that standardization is the way to go and why reinvent the wheel, if we can already take an already beautiful wheels with nice rims and tires?

The adoption of bootstrap is already spread all over the world, so, to non-Joomla user will be easier to get Joomla as a platform to work.

We at JoomlaBamboo are considering to implement bootstrat to our ZenGrid Framework as well. Our framework is for some time already, Responsive Enable.

We believe that technology evolves and we try to keep up with this evolution, so, Joomla should too...

1. Do you use a framework? Is so what is it?
Bootstrap 2, Zurb Fondation 2.2, Yaml 4 (this is an very good "old" but up-to-date toolkit)

2. What are the top three things you look for/use in a framework?
Accessible Toolkit
Good Core Dev and community

3. Have you used any of the above frameworks? What was your experience?
Bootstrap is easy to use.

4. Which frameworks do you recommend staying away from?
outdated and non-accessible toolkit

5. If you had to choose one framework for Joomla, what would it be?
HTML5 Boilerplate for the HTML + An UI Toolkit for the layouts, grid system, forms, typo, but an accessible JS Toolkit like Jquery by AEGIS or Dojo Toolkit.

About accessibility :

At this point there is no "fully" accessible front-end toolkit.
Bootstrap 2, Zurb Fondation 2.2, Skeleton and Kickstart Add-ons are not accessible.
Like a.radtke says, "all depends on the manner of implementation", all can be fixed.

For the rest, a.radtke has a very good point of view of the situation.

We can also think about multilanguage website, i think that these Toolkit add-ons are not ready for this.